Sunday, February 01, 2009

You can't see that you're just the same as all the stupid people you hate

I Need All the Friends I Can Get - Camera Obscura

Jonathan Chait comments:
It's kind of funny how, when it comes to domestic politics, many liberals employ assumptions about human naturethat are wildly at odds with the assumptions they use about human nature when it comes to foreign policy. When you read the liberal blogs on domestic politics, concessions to the enemy are always counterproductive, will must be met with will, etc. When you read them on foreign policy, all those asumptions are flipped on their head. I'm not saying that these two sets of assumptions are completely impossible to reconcile, but it is pretty odd how easily they sit together

This is a phenomenon that absolutely drives me crazy. People who love that Obama is willing to to meet with "the axis of evil" (and scoff at the idea that simply talking to them will offer them credibility) simultaneously live in a state of constant freakout about the possibility that Obama might want to talk to Republicans.

That said, I don't think the abortion example actually proves this point very well. Because the problem (as Scott Lemieux points out) with concessions there is that they fail to reconcile (and in fact ignore) the actual point of contention - which is either about the desire to regulate women's bodies or about an absolute commitment to preventing direct assault on fetal life, depending on who you believe (you can guess my opinion). Either way, it's not really a place where negotiated compromise works. Because that structure requires that people bargain for concessions in good faith.

If concessions on abortion could produce a social consensus for a European-style system where family planning services are widely available (including contraceptives, a social health infrastructure that makes wanted pregnancy easy and unwanted pregnancy less likely, and cheap/easy access to abortion up through 20 weeks or so) but come along with relatively strict restrictions on abortion after 20 weeks, I think a lot more liberals would be willing to get on board. However, there is no reason to think such a compromise is even on the table given the recent Republican freakout about provision of contraceptives (which, BTW reduce unwanted pregnancies - the primary cause of abortion - not to mention the spread of STDs).

Thus, bargaining on this is tantamount to engagement with Iran where they ask us to lift all sanctions, end military aid to Israel, and set up an embassy for Hezbollah in exchange for them promising to not use their nuclear weapons "unless they really want to."

I've gone off on a tangent, but the point remains: it's worthwhile for people who hate the GOP to consider every once in awhile what it would be like to imagine that your political adversaries are not hell-bent on global destruction but might actually be operating in good faith. That doesn't mean you have to let them do whatever they want (just as engagement doesn't mean surrendering core principles) - but it does mean placing some hope in communication.

Or, to put it another way: while not every situation is a prisoner's dilemma, it remains true that there are often situations where getting everything you want is simply not an option and you're left with a choice between a bad equilibrium and a good-not-great one. In such cases, it may be worth taking a moment to honestly wonder whether you're making the best the enemy of the good. And if that requires inculcating a general habit where people start from the principle that dialogue and engagement is a general good, maybe it's worth it.

4 comments:

mmrules said...

Jeebus !
You a Idiot,Asshat !
Read a paper or something !
You live in Santa Cruz ?
That place is too good for you..

David said...

Good post. I'm not sure I agree (or disagree) on whether compromise is possible on abortion, but I agree strongly with the thrust of the point and also that abortion is probably not the best example.

This is a topic I've been thinking a lot about for the past couple years of post-debate life. I think debate teaches a lot, but not all of it is good. Most debaters (myself included) develop habits that make effective communication and persuasion over controversial issues extremely difficult. You'd think switch-side debate would help, but I don't think it resolves the problem nearly as much as the adversarial model harms it. You'd think "knowing what args to concede, etc" would help, but I don't think that does either. It's just really hard to undo the sort of "I'm smarter than you" tone that debate encouraged us to adopt when arguing about something, you know? I don't think it's just me...

Charles said...

mmrules, thanks for the comment! Yes, Santa Cruz is very nice.

Davy, I think debate cultivates intellectual capacity to see many perspectives, which is very valuable. I agree that "switch-side debate" in itself doesn't do a lot, particularly given the combative relationship of any particular debate.

But I've never thought that utility of debate derived from the actual rounds themselves. For me, it's all in the research process that surrounds it, the importance of fully understanding the possible angles, the need to anticipate, the complete immersion in a literature base, etc. As Kade once said "if you learn something during the debate, you're doing something wrong."

I know I've changed my mind - or at least become a lot less sure - on a whole lot of issues after researching them in detail. I've also found plenty of areas where in depth research has revealed just how bankrupt the counter-arguments are in some contexts.

That may the exception. I'm often the exception.

Also, the security line links to the security K.

David said...

I hadn't considered the in-depth research perspective.

Nonetheless, I don't think that resolves the issue. It's certainly a big benefit of debate. But it doesn't dissolve the harmful training in knee-jerk, arrogant tone. I do think there's a lot of "learning" in debate rounds: you practice a certain mode of communication that aren't really practicing as much while writing blocks. It's what gives debaters that "edge" in arguments with other people: it's a logical advantage and emotional/persuasive disadvantage. We're much more likely to interrupt, to "know" what the other side's argument is before considering it.

And it all relates to what you originally posted about. You pointed to the substantive benefit of debate, and I totally agree. But there is an emotional cost. It trains us to think of arguments as fights and battles. It trains us to prepare for conversations like war.

Finally, I'm not really sure you're that I see the "different perspective" value in research as much as you do. You're right, if you research an issue super in depth you'll get some interesting perspective. But you'll probably spend 90% of your time thinking about how to convert what you're reading into an argumentative weapon to use, and usually debaters already have basic ideas of what they want something to say. It's not fair to compare debate to no-intellectual-engagement-at-all. Instead, compare in-depth debate research to in-depth research on the same issue. Then ask yourself: does debate really open up perspective, or does the debating filter actually reduce the perspective? I totally get that without debate, many wouldn't do the in depth research at all. I'm not saying people shouldn't do debate. I am trying to understand the real costs of debate (so I can deal with and alleviate them in my professional life), even if those costs are part of the best opportunity overall.